3: Designing for Theatre
When the audience's attention is fixed on the lead actor, the costumes and set can seem unimportant. But they are crucial elements in building a convincing narrative and drawing the audience into the story.
Sam Pine is a designer with more than two decades of experience working in theatre. Her credits include TV documentary series American Experience and Edgar Wright feature film A Fistful of Fingers.
Sam is also the set and costume designer for Proteus Theatre's stage production, Indestructible.
In this wide-ranging exploration of the career of a designer in the theatre and film industries, Sam tells host Mary Swan about how her career began, the varied directions it has taken, and what she believes are the key elements of a successful working life as a designer.
“He put on this crazy spaghetti western thing and I designed costumes for it... It was great. He’s a really nice chap, Edgar (Wright). It was a privilege to work with him when he was a young, inspiring director.”
Chapters
0:57 An early love of fashion and design
3:19 Landing your first gig
6:07 Working on Edgar Wright's first feature film
9:25 Designing for safety and comfort
10:11 Coping when things go wrong
14:10 Designing for community projects
18:02 The importance of confidence, determination and resilience.
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Mary Swan 0:08
Hi. Thanks for joining us for Indestructible. I'm Marie Swan, artistic director of Proteus and director of the show Indestructible. My guest for this edition is Sam Pine, designer for theater, television, community Projects. She's the set and costume designer for Indestructible, and we've had a creative partnership as director and designer on over 20 shows. Sam's joined me today to talk about her career path and what the job of designer really entails. Hi, Sam.
Sam Pine 0:36
Hi, Mary. Fine.
Mary Swan 0:44
Nice to see you. Nice to see you. So, yeah, I just wanted to really ask you about because I've never really spoken to you about this, but your kind of career path and and how you've ended up doing what you do now.
Sam Pine 0:57
When I was at school, I always really liked fashion and things like that because I was lucky enough to live in Paris, which was rather nice, as you know, rather nice that we went to a few fancy fashion shows there. They were pretty amazing. So that's where my love of clothes and things came from, I guess. And then I ended up doing a b.tech in Fashion and textiles in Canterbury College of Art. Many years ago now, through lovely years in Canterbury. That was great fun. Learning all about fashion and textiles and everything. And then I went on to do a degree again in fashion textiles. But in Bristol this time, which is where I've stayed still here and of my teachers used to say how someone would never wear that to get to school.
So I thought, well, you know, I did it. And I had a boyfriend at the time for me, he sort of said, Oh, there's this really good course at the Bristol City School in this design. And so I thought, Oh, you know, be interesting. So I went over there and have a chat to the course leader, and I thought, Oh, you don't like to do this? And got accepted onto the course to that's my journey into the executive design. And we put on shows there and they had the actors there and then they had stage management, lighting sound and there's a course there that makes the costumes. So you design the costumes and they get me the misfits. They had the carpentry department and they made the sets there as well. So yeah, it's all brilliant. They're just on from there doing freelance working now for quite a few years now, which is pretty ancient now. So I guess the many things you do then are lucky enough to work very, you.
Mary Swan 2:39
Know, and discipline in terms of getting those early gigs because you were working. When we started working together, you'd done a fair few shows by then, hadn't you done a few things before then? But I'm just intrigued as to how those those first gigs came about, because I think anyone thinking around a career as a designer and costume designer, it's like, how do you how do you even start to get people to approach you to work and how does that happen?
Sam Pine 3:08
I think that's the most difficult thing. I think the thing to be, well, I've always found, is to be very friendly with everybody because you never know when you're going to get a job or someone you know. Of course, you get your best jobs from somebody that couldn't do the job in the first place. Then they sort they say, Well, would you fight to do this because I can't do this? When I first started working for Proteus, I know a friend of mine couldn't do one of the shows and suggested me to do it. So, yeah.
Mary Swan 3:36
But this is what's really interesting. Is it? Because actually, he works for Proteus before I run the company? Yeah, because you and I met when? When I was working for Solent People's Theatre down in Southampton. Sadly, doesn't exist as a theatre company anymore. Similar touring theatre. But. But, Proteus, people may not realize it's a company. It's been in existence for over 40 years, and so has had many, many artistic directors coming through. So it's that weird thing, isn't it? You work for the first.
Sam Pine 4:02
Yeah, because one month before Mary Kay, we were quite good friends and he was leaving and he's ask if you knew anybody who didn't watch it. And is this really talented, talented director? Mary School.
Mary Swan 4:15
Oh, bless you.
Sam Pine 4:17
Bless you. It's amazing. You know, sometimes you just get lucky. But I mean, when I first started out, I did have to do quite a few things, but I did get paid for just to build your portfolio. Everything you do is great experience. It doesn't matter really what it is. The funniest things come from the funniest places of work, banana factories and all sorts of crazy things and you meet some interesting people. Something could influence you down the line. The banana factory I used to work in is now old with animation, so, you know, it certainly comes around and.
Mary Swan 4:51
You, you work you do some work for Bristol. Vic Theatre School, don't you? Do you see that the industry has changed a lot or do you feel like it's still the same pathways coming in or do you think it's harder or are there more roots in? I dunno, because.
Sam Pine 5:05
As you say, all I'm doing is working with them at the moment. Do you think Christmas Nativity is quite nice to be back there again? You saw it last time I designed the Nativity filled with like 20 years ago. So it's a similar script really alone. But is the same coming back to the same place? The only thing that's changed really is a lot people order things from Google and either, you know, online and stuff like that. We used to have to travel around charity shops and things to get things for the show and stuff. But with theatre it does tend to stay fairly consistent really, because at the end of the day you are trying to entertain people and it's quite using your hands all the time making things rather than a video, say the theatre school now do do a whole course in video film production. So that has changed. There go a lot more technical.
Mary Swan 5:56
You've done a fair few films and design for film and television, haven't you as well.
Sam Pine 6:00
Have done a bit of casualty and things? I think everybody has, Yeah.
Mary Swan 6:05
But you also had to write, didn't you?
Sam Pine 6:07
Which is. Yes. Yeah. He's first feature film. Yeah. But he is good. Yeah. He put all this crazy spaghetti western thing and designed costumes for it. Did in. Well it was filmed all around there in the valley and various shops and funny places. Yeah, it was great actually. Jeremy Dingle Was it, It took, got, I remember I had to be there for the teller and there was an accountant. He was going, I think you were short for that. You'll come on. It was very funny. We got dressed up as a policeman. It was a friend's house, I think. Yeah, it was all very funny, but yeah, it was great. Really nice chap. It just. It was a privilege to work with a young, you know, inspiring director and everything.
Mary Swan 6:53
So do you think coming the fashion route, fashion and textiles were you as opposed to doing it set costume course. Was that quite a big leap then to start working for film rather than theatre?
Sam Pine 7:06
Yeah, I mean, I think with film it's not so bad because you either do set or you do costume to get split up, whereas in theatre you well, you can't do both. In the bigger productions, they tend to have a separate costume designer and set designer, but in TV is quite separate and really there is a, an overall artistic director who looks over the whole thing and has overview of it. But then it is very much two sides. They meet in meetings but that sort of thing.
Mary Swan 7:38
So yeah, I suppose it's slightly different in terms of exactly what the costumes are, because I know that we, when we're making stuff for theatre, the costumes and set and things like that, we can do quite a lot smoke mirrors can't we. With what's there. And, but I guess we film, it's all got to be there. Going to be able to see that that button is the wrong period on that coat, you know.
Sam Pine 8:01
Whereas Yeah exactly. I think there's a whole group of people that just enjoy watching films, look at the mistakes that they've made in them and things and sort of great interest of and a fun thing to do, particularly with the lighting and things and the closeups and stuff. You have to be pretty accurate with that sort of thing where yes, theatre is a lot more it doesn't have to be specifically of the period it does. You get the mood of it or flavour of the period. If you want to go down that route, it's quite nice and flexible really. It can be a bit more fun. Really.
Mary Swan 8:36
Yeah. And the other end of that though is there are different challenges with theatre sets because you have to fit into demanding directors, but also writers. Sometimes the scripts can be very specific about what a set looks like before you even get to costume or what that needs to do for an actor. You and I have worked on some work that involved circus performers, aerial circus, trapeze and silks and things like that, and incorporating that into That's a really different thing, isn't it, when you start thinking about a set for a show and there are specifics how do you work that into a concept? Because it always amazes me.
Sam Pine 9:20
You'll come up with all the clever ideas. Maybe it's just.
Mary Swan 9:24
No, no.
Sam Pine 9:25
Particularly with the aerial and things like that. I mean, you have to be guided a little bit by the performers because they do their bodies. I don't know what they can do. So, you know, particularly when something's got to be a certain height player so they don't bang into anything or health and safety, I think is quite important. But also getting the look and doing to make them be uncomfortable. So they have to have the appropriate footwear and you have to do quite a lot of research into underwear, even down to exactly they could do because you don't want the rubbing in certain places. They have to watch out with little hands and yeah.
Mary Swan 10:11
What's been the biggest headaches? What's been the biggest challenges on shows that you've worked on? And it certainly can be hours.
Sam Pine 10:19
Because I know there's been a few had a few other challenges over the years where you there were we did have a bit of a problem with the handstand stools, didn't we. They said.
Mary Swan 10:30
Oh yeah, the handstand blocks.
Sam Pine 10:32
Has to implode and wobbly tables and we going to be all right, having a full table, you know, they're up in the air doing these amazing big feet and the last thing you want is a wobbly table or the ground to be uneven. And you've got a huge responsibility. You know what? If she fell off, it's all my fault. It's my wobbly table.
Mary Swan 10:54
That was on Daisy chamber, wasn't it? And the issue there is that Sam had designed and we made a set that had this table in it that was perfectly stable in the rehearsal room and in most of the theatres we went into. But of course you're going into especially this show was touring in beautiful old places like Harrogate and other places like that. And when you're on an older stage, they're not level. So the amount of like little bits of cardboard and things, I mean it's amazing the lengths we end up going to to make things work.
Sam Pine 11:26
But what we had was it The Little Mermaid? We did, and I remember doing a Black Mirror really quite nice. The maid costume had this foam cool, but they put it in the wash with all of the other than what you could get in a washing machine. Yeah, well, look at the colour. You don't do all of the costs, you know.
Mary Swan 11:48
It was the very grey mermaid was.
Sam Pine 11:51
Oh, yes, Oopsy Daisy.
Mary Swan 11:55
And with touring because you work a lot in touring as well as you've done quite a few outdoor shows as well haven't you. And that.
Sam Pine 12:03
Yeah.
Mary Swan 12:04
How do you design a set that's going to go into different places? What are the things you need to think about from that perspective? How do you make that work?
Sam Pine 12:13
I think they start off with the the dual sighs that you get into. You
can make it through a door. What is the smallest area? You can get something through their doors. You have to break down the set from there. Again, another thing is the weight of the set. We had some problems with the van, got stopped on the motorway and weighed. You have to be careful not to be too heavy in the van. So that's the big well, obviously fitting in the van. So you need the pieces to be small enough to fit through the door in the van, to store in the van, those sorts of things. And then you have to build up to the height of the theatres. And if you look at the minimum height you can have and then sometimes we can expand set a little bit if it's a bit wider or something. So it's nice to have something that you can just add a little bit on to the set to make it a little bit more You to fill the space a bit better allows begin with the height. You know, it's quite nice that you make it hard. You can always look good if it's a bit higher just to fill the space. And so lines are again very important. It's a marvellous show, but half the audience could actually see fortunately. So there's a few little things you have to take into consideration.
Mary Swan 13:31
Yeah, I mean, especially if you're touring into non theatre spaces as we've done and you've done with other companies in your career. You know, we have taken a chainsaw to a bit of set before it contains.
Sam Pine 13:45
All would bring Gaffer J
Gaffer to Jigsaw. So yeah, it's like that sorted. But the adventures of theatre and pots of paint saws helps as well.
Mary Swan 13:59
Definitely.
Sam Pine 14:01
Another important thing for Breeze.
There's marvellous costumes you can't wash.
Mary Swan 14:10
But you've also done a lot of work as a theatre designer in areas that people might not have expected in terms of working directly in the community. So there's a company in Bristol you work with called Actor, and I just wanted you to talk a little bit about that and how you work as a designer with people who aren't actors. But it's not strictly amateur theatre, is it? Because they're devising they're making work in slightly different ways, aren't they?
Sam Pine 14:36
Actors Great. They try work with a really broad set of community. So we work with young carers, adults of learning difficulties, We work with young children and who have disabilities or all sorts of disabilities in their lives. Some of the rehearsals have to be on Zoom because they can't get away from home. They facilitate taxis to bring people in. So they could be all around. Because I live in Bristol, all around Bristol, nobody's excluded and it's all free to join in things sometimes because you have to meet the criteria and whatever project we're doing and things. But yes, hopefully engaging the whole community with the lovely Malcolm X who this amazing group of older ladies who came over for the Windrush and a joy to be with. As soon as you see them, this will smile and hug them because they're just all the same. But they are the little tinkers with their costumes because they steal each other's costumes.
But an absolute joy to work with. And I love them all. It's amazing. And they most of the shows, warts and all of the shows really are devised by ideas. They come up with some kind of crazy. But we like that. The crazy little,
particularly the Malcolm X of the memories of when they were little girls and things and funny stories. Their parents told that they would dress up as little girls with the little hat. So the little pigtails are amazing. Yeah, it's a funny thing and lovely. It's great. I'll just tell you a little story. I was in the shop the other day, the other top of my shoulder and I turned around and there was this handsome young man and he might know what you stand for, but what I said yesterday, I used to perform as a little boy. Now he was grown up. He was expecting a baby. He said policeman. And it was a lot of problems when a youngster and he came and performed with actor and he said it really made him and it gave him confidence. It's amazing what theatre can do. And it was a big smile to my face. He loved his costume and he remembered me and said, Nice.
Mary Swan 16:40
That's really nice, isn't it? Because we were saying earlier about in a different episode around what success looks like and the way that a lot of people think we judge success in this industry is by what famous this is around. And to a certain extent that's true. But really, actually at the end of the day, when it all comes down to its moments like that and it's where you actually have an effect on someone's life. And that is so extraordinary. It's such a privilege, isn't it? When you meet those people later on they go, That changed me. It's just a lovely thing.
Sam Pine 17:10
Yeah, I did. I worked with Watermill Theatre. We did a community show and I worked with a couple of young people and we made all the costumes of the. It was quite an epic thing. I think it was about 80 people, but it is loads of them. And I worked with these two young people and they'd never done costume before and we did a bit of doing, a bit making and we saw the costumes and we this dress, there were all sorts of things. Did. After that I found that both of them had gone in to do. Of course, do you want to go off to do a degree in costume? The other one was heading off to work in a part shop and things. It was amazing to feel that you could actually influence people like that. They just enjoyed it. So they were regularly volunteering at the theatre as well, so yeah, yeah. Oh good, really nice.
Mary Swan 18:02
And what would you say to young Sam Pine just coming into the industry? What would be your advice to her, knowing what you know now?
Sam Pine 18:15
They got it.
They have confidence in what you do. I guess a pretty happy times are ahead because it's such a lovely thing to be involved in theatre to do a drawing and then to have it made into a costume that you see on the stage. I mean, there's nothing better, a little prop or little puppet that comes off. And it's amazing to see. Oh, come on. The youngest, Sam
Things may get too down to do.
Mary Swan 18:47
Yeah, it's interesting. I think that's sort of what we've all said so far. Kind of. Everyone I've spoken to so far on the podcast and ask that question to is that thing of stick with it because it's worth it. Because I think that is the other thing is that the industry is it is hard, isn't it? It is tough. There are very difficult times and it's being prepared for that. From your perspective around, as you say, working in the community and working outside of directly working in theatre as well. Are there any other things that you've done that haven't been maybe strictly stage shows or strictly film where you've been commissioned to do something or.
Sam Pine 19:23
Yeah, I mean, I did all sorts of things. I used to run giant lantern parades where I worked with schools and we produced hundreds of lanterns for parades in Beaconsfield and for the Jubilee I did 1950s room for a museum. That was great fun, sourcing all the props and things for that kind of the 1953 I've done murals, I've done panto castles. You could do dressing, you did the television. There's a massive industry out there and lots of different arts things that you can go towards if you enjoy doing it. I did a bit of running for film and things and then, you know, it's always you still doing that sort of thing. People approach you and say, Would you fancy doing this? So I don't think there's any job that's not relevant. If you get your foot in there and people like you and you're a person, you get on with people, you know.
Mary Swan 20:23
What does being a runner on a film entail? I've never completely understood what that role is.
Sam Pine 20:29
Mostly making tea or running around doing anything, really going to get gaffer or going to point the actors and actors have got an issue, or it could be anything good. You go run out and get such and such a paint or it can be anything. Well, good fun.
Mary Swan 20:50
Oh, brilliant.
Sam Pine 20:51
Yeah. It's just nice to be part of the arts industry, really. It's a great industry to be in. It's getting more and more difficult to earn a living in the industry today because you.
Mary Swan 21:02
Do a bit of teaching as well for Bristol Fake don't you, on an occasion. And I mean, I think one of the things that's come out of all these conversations where we've been talking about people's career paths is essentially all of us really have not just one skill in the box that actually we can all run workshops, we've all done different jobs. Do you think younger people need to be quite diverse in this? Do you think that's a help If they can diversify their skill base?
Sam Pine 21:27
Yeah, I think it's really good to have something to fall back on now, particularly to have a job that can earn some money while you're doing a bit of art as well. Everything so expensive read mortgages, everything's craziness. So I think you have to be able to be quite flexible with things that we've learned to be a barista, anything make up people do make up or tell you things. You do a little repertoire, you can pull it out and you are able to be a little bit more diverse in various areas. It can all be really helpful. I mean, I looked after a young man with learning disabilities for one day a week and it was great. Just I've got a friend too. She's a ceramics shirt, a ceramicist, and she does very well. But she also looks after a young lady with learning difficulties and that pays her mortgage just two days a week. And then the rest of the week she works on her own stuff. So I think sometimes you've just got to be able to do it, unfortunately. Very sad.
Mary Swan 22:27
But yes, yes and no, because I think also somehow I think that probably all feeds in, doesn't it? You chop jobs, they can feed into your practice, can't they? Because, you know, if I ask you to create a look for a character, if you've encountered that person, you're able to bring to that an authenticity in terms of how they look. Same for the actors, of course, you know, So the more life, the better is.
Sam Pine 22:50
Actually, I think you've just got to get out there. Get out your room. This is a big world out there. There's so many for jobs of people and a friend to the post office Christmas to unpacking and the script from working in the packing office for details. They still work at the factory with this hilarious thing. So we go up to the factory. It was just a summer job, you can imagine with bananas.
Mary Swan 23:17
I don't know. Let's not go there.
Sam Pine 23:20
Yeah, Yeah.
Mary Swan 23:21
So there's a last question, but you may or may not have something for me I've been asking everyone to come up with because indestructible. The show, the initial impetus for me to make the show was because I had long been in love with Lee Miller as a photographer and as an artist and just felt like not enough people knew about her. That is changing. And in the intervening years that has changed. Obviously, the show evolved into being something quite different, but it all came from that idea, that slight irritation that not enough people knew about her. Is there anyone, any female artists that you feel that you would like more people to know about? She's laughing because she's.
Sam Pine 24:00
Just go blank. Her brain doesn't work anymore. My friend would kill me because obviously I went to art college and I used to be good friends with many artists so I could say about friends that I went to college with Debbie Elliott. She was amazing. She produced the most beautiful paintings. She was setting enough to use me as a model a few times. So I probably got downgraded. Her marks a bit. He tried to make a go of it as an artist, but again, it is so very difficult to do that. She diversified into doing therapy and working with people who needed a bit of help, and they found that working with art and painting and things really give hope the way they feel and put a positive attitude into their lives. And she went that way of doing her own paintings in the end, but she still is lovely and brilliant. And Debbie probably said.
Mary Swan 24:56
That's brilliant. What's been lovely chatting with you, Sam, It's.
Sam Pine 24:59
Been a pleasure.
Mary Swan 25:00
Thanks so much for joining us By.
That's it for this edition of Indestructible, the podcast. I'm Mary Sloan, artistic director of Proteus. Thanks again for joining us. I look forward to your company next time. If you like what you've heard, please share. Subscribe. Leave a five star review. It really helps just reach other listeners. Thanks for coming with us on this journey. You can listen to this podcast anytime, anywhere. You get your podcasts.
Credits
The Indestructible podcast is a Creative Kin production for Proteus Theatre Company.
Executive Producer & Producer: Jason Caffrey
Mixing and Mastering: Adam Double
Production Music: DEX 1200
Artwork: Y Designs
