5: The Business Of Art
How does the art world work? TLDR: It’s not a level playing field.
Chloë Sylvestre is a creative producer and project manager in the arts, focussed on public outreach and community engagement.
She works with international institutions, artist studios, local communities and schools to create alternative, challenging and dynamic cultural projects for a globally diverse audience.
Chloë also advised Proteus Theatre on the roles of gallerists and curators in contemporary art for its stage production, Indestructible.
In this revealing interview with Proteus Artistic Director Mary Swan, Chloë opens a window onto the demands of working with artists and institutions to make exhibitions a reality, and the cultural bias that sees women and other under-represented artists viewed as second-tier players in the art world.
“In terms of archivists and curators and maybe studio assistants, there are a lot of women. And then in terms of Museum Directors or actual artists... it’s certainly more male dominated.”
Chapters
1:27 Being the 'person who gets things done'
3:22 Juggling strong personalities
6:13 How networking and relationships drive art world success
13:24 Gender, jobs and roles in the art world
14:56 How women are 'othered' by art institutions
18:16 Carrie Mae Weems - an important living artist
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Mary Swan 0:00
Hi, I'm Mary Swan, artistic director of Proteus, and you're listening to Indestructible. If you enjoyed this show, please share. Subscribe and leave a five star review. Thanks for listening.
Hi. Thanks for joining us for Indestructible, the podcast connected to the show created by Proteus and touring nationally in 2024. I'm Mary Swan, artistic director of Proteus and director and writer of Indestructible The Show. My guest for this edition is Chloe Sylvester. Chloe Sylvester is a creative producer and project manager in the arts, focusing on public outreach and community engagement. She works with international institutions, artists, studios, local communities and schools to create alternative, challenging and dynamic cultural projects for a globally diverse audience. Chloe has also been acting as advisor for us on Indestructible, talking about the contemporary art world and talking about the roles of curators and gallerists within that. So welcome, Chloe. Thanks for joining us. Thank you.
So can you just explain a little bit more about what you do in the art world? Because you've got a really wide and varying job career path, all that stuff, but sort of what your what your main areas of being, it's a little bit different from being just a curator, isn't it? You do a lot more than that.
Chloë Sylvestre 1:27
Yeah, I actually work with curators that I'm more of the person who gets things done on a practical level. So yeah, I'm referred to as a creative producer or a project manager, and I basically oversee the development and execution of contemporary art projects. So whether it be exhibitions or installations, commissions, performances, events, and I really enjoy that. I work from start to finish on a project in the sense that I'm usually involved in the initial conversations, maybe with an institution and an artist and a curator already where there is an idea that we want to collaborate with an artist or an institution and start developing how we can go about doing that. And I'm able to kind of contribute from a creative side in the discussion to also a very practical technical side on how we will actually get things done. So working on budgets, logistics, technicalities, legal stuff, planning, and then when the work is actually up, depending on where it is, if it's a temporary installation, for example, I'm also involved in how to install the work and also the afterlife of the work. If it's maybe going on to another temporary location or a permanent space or taking a whole new form somewhere else. So yeah.
Mary Swan 2:56
So it's actually not. It is, you know, as you say, the term creative produce. I mean, in theatre, certainly that's very much the role of a producer in theatre. So it's a really similar way of working, isn't it. Supporting that projects in the artist and as you say, logistics in so many ways. And do you find working with institutions and artists, what are the kind of main problems you have to iron out with this sort of stuff?
Chloë Sylvestre 3:22
Yeah, I definitely think there are a lot of strong personalities involved. Artists themselves in general. It's really interesting working with them and they all do have very different personalities and I think it's maybe a particular role where their job is to basically be themselves. There's no filter or like maybe level of professionalism or things like that that they are driven by. It's more about their practice and actually how they operate on a day to day basis. So there is a constant juggle to ensure that the work itself and the people involved are being supported fully and they all feel like they are. But you can also get things done. That's actually a part of my job that I really enjoy, is constantly being that first point of contact in middle person, working with an institution, working with artists, working with studios and assistants and technicians, and kind of getting everybody to constantly focus on the same goal because everybody has their own stakes in it in a way, and everybody's coming at it from a different angle. And it's, I think one of the aspects of my role that is continuous throughout the process is constantly reminding everybody that we're in this together and that it's not
head butting a competitive ego
battle. So yeah, there are a lot of challenges. There are a lot of moments where it's just important to take a step back and remind ourselves that we're not, you know, saving lives. And it's good to be able to laugh about things and just, yeah, never, never let things take you completely spiralling out of. Yeah.
Mary Swan 5:16
No, I could I could sympathize with that I think is, is really true actually because I think, you know visual artist is sort of more unique in that sense that all the work is personal, isn't it? There's nothing that's not personal about the work of visual artist. Whereas I think for us, you know, making theatre pieces or whatever where someone else has written it or, you know, if it's about something else, you can take a step back that I can imagine. It's really difficult, especially if that artist feels it's not going the way they want or. And when you when you're dealing with institutions and I know you've worked across private galleries as well as museums and in institutions, it would just be interesting. One things we touched on in the show is around that world, the art world, and that difference between private galleries and museums and how artists get their work into museums where we're more likely to encounter it. What's been your experience of that journey and is that any easier or harder, or how does that work now?
Chloë Sylvestre 6:13
I mean, I think a lot of it is about networking and relationships. There are so many artists out there in the world and part of this whole discussion and the play is also about there might be successful artists or artists with an incredible body of work who just hasn't gotten the recognition that maybe is deserved. That is always going to be the case because there are only so many institutions and so many platforms to showcase artists. So a huge part of being a successful artist is very much about being able to play that game in a way. Of course, there has to be a level of sincerity where people are developing relationships with curators and directors and museum directors and different artists and studios, and that has to feel genuine. But you know, I know a lot of artists where that really goes out of their comfort level, where they're very introverted and they know they have to do well. But it's just so exciting what they would like to be doing. They'd rather just be locked away somewhere. And I think there are certain artists who surround themselves with the right people, whether it be gallery representatives or studios assistants, studio managers who understand them and support them and are able to be the face for them to help facilitate those relationships and make projects happen. But yeah, I mean, that's also a constant challenge. Even when you do have that relationship with numbers, when you've had those meetings, when you've confirmed that you're doing a project together and there's so many stages throughout that where you constantly need to be in contact because things are really developing up until the day a work is or an exhibition shown to the public. And there are a lot of artists who are maybe very present in that moment. But then when you have a lot of other aspects of the project you're trying to develop or confirm signing, following, it can be really challenging to get a hold of the artist. A lot of things can get on hold, so that is something that is constantly a challenge as well. And part of my role is to make sure there are lines of communication and ways to kind of anticipate making decisions. Even if we can't get a hold of the artist for example.
Mary Swan 8:26
Yeah, because it is a business, isn't it? I mean, this is absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And art is essentially, I guess, more than any other art form. Art is working other art forms, you know, for visual art, I guess you have to be your own, your own small business in that sense of promoting yourself and all that stuff. But it's really interesting for you in terms of what drives the tastes or the contemporary art world at the moment. Does that sort of fluctuate a lot? Is it are there trends or are there things people who suddenly everyone's buying a certain kind of work in a certain art form, or do you see that happening?
Chloë Sylvestre 9:03
Absolutely. I think there always specific artists that you see emerging is like the new artist to keep an eye out on all the different forms of work. So whether it be maybe performance is a big focus all of a sudden or, you know, photography or documentary or there are definitely things I would say like, you know, in any visual art based world, I think you see that also in fashion and design and things like that. I would say that within the contemporary art world you can notice influences both on what's maybe more aesthetically appealing at that time, but also a huge impact on that is also what's happening politically, globally, you know, where the focus is, what kind of stories are being told and why We are interested in finding more about the specific stories, those voices, those demographics. So that is definitely constantly shifting. I think I definitely noticed that for sure. Even if you look at the programming of museums globally, you kind of see a lot of artists will shift from one institution to another during a specific period of time because all of a sudden the attention is on them. And then you have institutions who intentionally veer away from that and try and actively seek out completely different forms of work or different artists who are not at all in the spotlight yet.
Mary Swan 10:39
Yeah,
I mean, one of the inspirations for us with Indestructible is that for the character of Catherine Shaw, the central character is that she's a fictional member of the young British artist's the Y Bay movement in the nineties, and we were talking about in sort of popular culture in Britain. It feels like that moment hasn't happened again in the visual arts, that when you look back on it, it's such an extraordinary thing that that catapulted Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin and all those people. Is it an anomaly of art or is that something that you could see happening again where visual artists would suddenly become essentially overnight household names?
Chloë Sylvestre 11:22
I feel like that can be reproduced and has kind of happened again, but maybe not. I think that group of artists really all came from the same school specific period of time, and it was directly linked to a show where that was gaining a specific amount of attention, where a specific gallery artists and art dealers were actively going to that show specifically to look for the next artist. And I think it was maybe like a perfect storm there of the program at the time and the artists at the time, the galleries at the time were willing to kind of offer opportunities to artists in that way. That doesn't happen as frequently now. Galleries as well, it's a business is very much motivated by money. I think a lot of art dealers are less willing to take that much of a risk on artists and immediately kind of represent them and support them in that way maybe. And I think that goes also back to just developing these relationships between the artists and the galleries. You know, I think it's things that happen over time. I know a lot of artists who even are from that movement who actually don't really want a any major representation because they want to be in charge of their own work and how it's seen in the world and how it's sold. I think that why be a movement? It's very much a part of its time in a certain situation. And while I think that even now you see certain groups of artists emerging and getting attention and you can see commonalities between their career and their backgrounds, it's not so much like, you know, all artists from a specific location and the specific age group. And I don't think that's so much a thing that we see now.
Mary Swan 13:06
Yeah, yeah. And for you working as a woman in the contemporary art world, how is that been? Is that are there are a lot of female curators, gallerists, producers in your position or have you seen that get better? How has that journey been?
Chloë Sylvestre 13:24
I would say actually, in the art world, in terms of archivists and curators and maybe studio assistants, there are a lot of women and then more in terms of like museum director as actual artists themselves. It's certainly more male dominated for me because I, I work a lot with the technical side of things, so I work a lot with technicians, installers, and I would say 98% of those people identify as male. So that is always interesting. It's not necessarily a constant challenge I face in my role, but there are definitely a lot of moments where there is still this really stereotypical mindset of because I'm a woman, I'm not going to understand technical aspects of how to make a work or, you know, really practical elements. It is something that I, you know, have to laugh about because it's a coping mechanism, but it is also something that is unfortunately still very omnipresent in a lot of aspects of my work. So.
Mary Swan 14:34
And do you feel in terms of female artists, because again, central to the show is around this idea of female artists being so underrepresented and even those that are relatively successful are not as remembered or lauded as much as the men around them. Do you feel that situation is changing or do you think it's still really hard as a contemporary female artist?
Chloë Sylvestre 14:56
I do think that is still very much a challenge, though. I think when you see programming and institutions where there are more women, it's usually part of a group show that's showcasing women artists. I wish I could remember where I heard this or read this, but there was someone made a point about that saying, Why do we have exhibitions where it's like artists from this era or something and then you just have female artists from this era. Why is that? A Some category? And I think that just highlights how much, even broadly speaking, the art world still considers artists as a very specific group of people. And then every other category is then identified, whether it be culturally or how they identify as male or female, etc.. And I think that just highlights that there's still very much a challenge there. And within the art world itself, there are more female artists who have opportunities and who are established and able to be successful as an artist, but not necessarily known widely for their work. So that is still very much a challenge. And when you look at artists collections, museum collections, the percentage of artists who are female or from different backgrounds is still like just alarmingly low. Yeah, there's a lot of work there. Yeah.
Mary Swan 16:26
Yeah. It is quite disheartening, isn't it? There's a statistic in the play that we use around work that the Guerrilla Girls had done in 2020, and I think it's something like 1% of one of the major museums I looked at. It was still only 1% of the works were by women. And this is not really an excuse, is there? Because actually sort of it felt to me like sort of latterly that there's been an uncovering of female artists who have been working throughout history, but perhaps in areas around the sort of 18th century or whatever the work they were allowed to make is perhaps a little limited. But since then there isn't really much of an excuse. But I think is it a vicious cycle then that because the museums and the institutions aren't showing works by female artists, that female artists aren't getting bought, which would then feeds that being put in the museum. Does it work that way?
Chloë Sylvestre 17:19
Yeah, absolutely. I think what you're saying, it's definitely part of it where there was a period in which artists who were in white men weren't getting the opportunity to even be considered as an artist, to even consider that as a career, to even have access to materials and opportunities that would enable them to explore that side of them at all. And that has certainly changed. However, there is still this wider perception of what an artist means and who we take more seriously nowadays. And I think there is still like a lot of work to be done, basically.
Mary Swan 18:02
Absolutely. So I've asked everyone to bring along a female artist who isn't as well known because that was the central idea of indestructible was my frustration that more people didn't know about Lehmiller. So who who have you brought for as Chloe?
Chloë Sylvestre 18:16
Well, I thought a bit about it because it's interesting for me. Like my background initially wasn't primarily photography and film, so Lehmiller is someone I'm very familiar with and it kind of got me to think about your question in the sense who is maybe known in the art world, but not more broadly recognized by people who aren't as tapped into that world. And I thought about the artist Carrie Mae Williams, who actually just had love last. So yeah, the Barbican this summer. Yeah. And I thought, you know, it's interesting because she she actually talks about being an artist who has pretty much been in all of the museums. But she had an interview with the director, Terence Nance, a few years ago, and she said something like, They may take my ideas, they'll use my ideas, but they will not use me. So it's like the subject matter of her work is very poignant and celebrated and it is showcased in museums, but still somehow her as an artist and as the person behind that work is still not as recognisable as the work itself. And I find that really interesting because I think it's really tapping into also Lee Miller in that the subject matter that by. So yeah, I think she's a really important artist who's still living and continuing to create really important bodies of work that touch upon very relatable subjects relating to domesticity and everyday life and involving performative and cinematic elements. And I think a lot of people can relate to, even if they don't identify with Harry Mae Weems specifically as an African-American woman. But there are a lot of aspects to her work that I think intentionally are trying to reach a broader range of audience.
Mary Swan 20:17
Yeah, I agree. I didn't know much about her and a little bit about her until I saw the retrospective at the Barbican. And is she? Her work is extraordinary. And as you say, what's this is true, I think for a lot of female artists of the 20th and 21st centuries is her practice covers. As you say, it's performative, it's film, it's installation, it's photography, you know, really interested in broad ranging way of working. But it's is beautiful work. Yeah, she's amazing. I'm so glad you brought her in.
Well, thank you so much, Chloe, for coming in, talking to us. And thank you as well for advising us on the on the script part.
Chloë Sylvestre 20:56
I think.
Mary Swan 20:58
It's brilliant. Thanks for coming. See, so that's it for this edition of In to to the podcast. I'm Mary Sloan, artistic director of Proteus. Thanks again for joining us. I look forward to your company next time, if you like what you've heard, please share, subscribe or leave a five star review. It really helps us reach other listeners. Thanks for coming with us on this journey. You can listen to this podcast anytime, anywhere. You get your podcasts.
Credits
The Indestructible podcast is a Creative Kin production for Proteus Theatre Company.
Executive Producer & Producer: Jason Caffrey
Mixing and Mastering: Adam Double
Production Music: DEX 1200
Artwork: Y Designs
